"Do you agree that “safer situations”—ones that don’t happen to have intense consequences—tend not to be “exceedingly meaningful”?"
What he calls "safer situations", I call moments of awe and wonder, quiet time to reflect and maybe learn something about the world around me. I think those moments make me a better person and better able to be of service to others when they need me. Our society tends to be drawn to those who take chances and put themselves out there and that seems to carry more importance than those who are working quietly in the shadows.
I often feel as if I haven't contributed enough to society, but why should I care? I know I've been doing the important work of caring for my family, that I've been focusing on being my true self, and that I should not let society make me feel as if I'm not doing something important. I am. I have to keep telling myself that.
Tbh, it’s not my death that keeps me up at night, it’s the demise of my loved one’s. They give my life meaning and it’s frightening to consider their absence.
I envy those who have faith in a particular religion and/or the afterlife. I ascribe to the principles that Junger’s father taught him. Perhaps I’ll have a similar experience and it will change my mindset.
As for being immortal, I wouldn’t want to be if my loved one’s were not. I would not want to survive them all and deal with unending grief.
There’s something egotistical about believing that of all the living beings, we are so special that an afterlife awaits us. However, there is much I don’t understand and I hold onto the possibility that I’m wrong.
I’ve always liked how Shakespeare put it in Hamlet, “The undiscovere’d country from which whose bourn, no traveler returns, puzzles the will”..
Despite science’s advances, there is still so much to be explained and I don’t pretend to have all the answers.
thanks for articulating that, Shawn - I feel the same way re being much more rattled by the fear of death of loved ones than of my own.
Re being "egotistical" - when I consider the idea of an afterlife, I don't limit it to humans; I assume that, if it exists, it would include all conscious beings. Or all consciousness, might be a better way to put that.
I don't think I could possibly answer these questions in the way they deserve to be answered -- especially not while tapping on my phone with one thumb.
How do I feel about the idea that life would be meaningless without death? I'm not sure about that one, either. Having a time limit can lead us to search inside and carefully choose how we spend or time. The shortness of life can make the moments seem more precious.
But this is all we know. If this life were eternal, couldn't I still find good reasons to savor the moments? Would my growth, inevitably, be slower or not happen at all? Would I fall into an endless rut of laziness and gluttony, always putting things off for tomorrow?
Who can say? To me, the shortness of this life, and the fact that we can be given vastly different amounts of time to live--seems rather meaningless, at times. The fact that some of us end up having our lives mostly consumed by addiction, disease, loneliness and other things that often are largely beyond our control. Can we say that is the "meaning" of one person's life? At the same time, another person is able to write poetry and teach and be a leader and an innovator and build a lasting legacy and be revered and remembered?
Isn't the meaning we give to a human life largely dependant upon the opportunities granted each person? To say the "meaning" lies only in what each person makes of life and the time they are given.... That notion seems short-sighted to me. I honestly think it could be true that some people never really have a chance to fully live and feel alive and contribute in a meaningful way.
Those are just a few of my thoughts and questions. No doubt there's a lot here that I'm overlooking or that I don't understand.
I'll end here. Thanks for the thought-provoking questions.
Amy, you articulated much of what I was trying to work out as I thought about these questions. I especially relate to this question and answer:
"Isn't the meaning we give to a human life largely dependant upon the opportunities granted each person? To say the "meaning" lies only in what each person makes of life and the time they are given.... That notion seems short-sighted to me. I honestly think it could be true that some people never really have a chance to fully live and feel alive and contribute in a meaningful way."
I often feel this way about my own life, that I've been handed a challenging situation and don't feel "fully alive" or that I'm not contributing in a way that might seem meaningful to others (except those I care for, of course). I can't change the situation I'm in, so I make the best of it. But what would others think of me and my lack of "accomplishments" when what I do daily is quietly and compassionately caring for the needs of others and not rising to expectations of something they consider a success or something noteworthy?
I also wonder how we'd all react if we had infinite time on our hands. I don't tend to think about how much time I have left, but understanding that death awaits me does motivate me somewhat to make the best use of each day. Sometimes I fail at this. We never know when our time will come, but for me, knowing I'm on a ticking clock does make me appreciate the time I do have on this planet.
I wonder about Junger's assertion that without death, life is meaningless because it would never end. Instinctively, I'd argue that plenty of living people have very meaningful lives - it's not their death that creates the meaning, it's their actions.
However, scratching the surface... My mum died when I was 12. I loved her dearly and it is the single most traumatic thing that's ever happened to me. My partner's dad died when he was 16 - I know that it traumatised him similarly. I suspect that my partner and I (to an extent - that's important), probably ascribe more 'meaning' to our passed parents than objectively would be fair; that is to say, we tend towards seeing them with rose tinted glasses. For example, I am acutely aware of my (living) dad's weaknesses and faults but for me, my mum has none... In that way, I can see some truth in Junger's assertion. Or, perhaps death amplified the meaning that was already there.
I recently read somewhere that we are all just borrowed carbon. That might sound trite, but it's pretty incredible to think about what I have done and will do with my unique carbon configuration, who has shared parts of it before, and who will use it after me—the passions, joys, disappointments, falls, and moments of awe and of profound grief. For the non-religious me, this notion is an expression of our profound connectedness.
Thanks for sharing these thoughts about one of the greatest last taboos of our society. In my opinion, death like aging is a normal part of the human experience. Nevertheless, we go around for the most part finding ways to look younger and /or seek some kind of wellness program to extend our natural life expectancy. Life for me can have meaning while living,. Knowing we are mortal and will die can also be motivating. Being a descent human being and helping others is what I see as meaningful. Knowing I have a finite numbers of years left to live based on family history and statistics motivates me to spend my time wisely, finding and making opportunities to find meaning. If I have the opportunity to leave the physical plane gently, I’m very interested in having a death doula. A meaningful way to transition to the spiritual dimension.
Thank you Susan for these deep thought provoking questions! I think life would still have meaning even if it didn’t end. It’s what you make of it. Love, nature, kindness, helping others all give meaning to life.
When my Mom was dying she was talking to her family members that have passed. It felt like they were in the room with her giving her assurance and guidance. It felt so peaceful to know she wouldn’t be alone where she was going. It made it easier on her and us knowing this.
I must say, I do not agree. I think an immortal life could be filled with new challenges, goals and experiences. Imagine *not* having time as a scepter and instead, be offered many chances to course correct and better oneself. Thank you dear Susan for this book recommendation and for such a thought-provoking post! ❤️🙏
Safer situations . . . —tend not to be “exceedingly meaningful” - I assume that due most brains’ way of working, i.e. based on negativity biased will in fact consider such safer / more pleasant situations as less meaningful - until. . . - the environment changes, e.g. at war times - so that those very moments become the dream scenario.
Interesting way to put “adrenaline junkies are actually ‘meaning junkies,’ and danger seekers are actually ‘consequence seekers’ - tend to agree. . . - not necessarily based on personal experience but because there’s other examples of ‘misleading’ emotions, e.g. hurt feelings ever so often come as anger.
I’ve to admit that at first sight, the title was a bit disturbing - but as so clearly expressed in the quote, dying is such a normal, ordinary part of life, no escape and in most cases no control / timing. It should not be hard to accept that / live with it and yet, I recently came across an article ‘are we the first generation that won’t die?’ (https://www.theguardian.com/film/2025/jan/02/bryan-johnson-documentary-dont-die-netflix) -
I’m not that old yet, but over the last couple of years have seen my parents aging - it seems that at least my mum at times, preferred dying over aging, as this is too is radical change, most in an undesired way, bringing about weakness, pain, suffering etc. - all of that just to say, the concept of death/dying is informed by circumstances, i.e. its not abstract / intellectual/philosophical - or at least not only.
I read a book called "Changed In A Flash" by Elizabeth Krohn. It describes her near death experience after being hit by lightning. She describes being in an Eden like environment for 2 weeks and being given very detailed information about her life and future. She was given the choice to come back or not and she decides to come back because of her 2 young children. The predictions she was given came true and she has all kinds of new abilities and talents and challenges afterwards. There is a growing body of literature about near death experiences. This one confirmed my belief that there is so much more to this world than we know and that life doesn't end when we die. The soul lives on. Still, so many more questions.
*Do you agree that “safer situations”—ones that don’t happen to have intense consequences—tend not to be “exceedingly meaningful”?
This phrase makes me wonder what the "intense consequences" might have been from two encounters with wild animals. First was the time I was lying on my little deck in my zero gravity chair and put down the book I was reading. Along came a hummingbird which hovered a while a few inches from my face as if looking at me. The experience had its own kind of intensity and the consquence may have been a contribution to my sense of inter-connectedness to all life. The same "time out of time" experience occurred when I was driving into a familiar nearby wooded wildlife refuge and saw a silhouette of a dog in the road ahead. As I approached in my car slowly I could see that it was a fox and I stopped the car. The fox sat still looking in my direction. I'm not sure what they could see, whether just the car, or also the human inside it. I stopped and waited for the fox to leave at their own initiative. The consequence? Is it intense? The embodied certainty that I was on the fox's land and not that the fox was on people's land. The consquence being this embodied sense of a thought. Both of these situations were safe. Yet each had a consquence that changed my experience of myself in the larger world. I have had traumatic, unsafe experiences become embodied , but these "safe" experiences also remain as embodied memories, as well, and they had the consquences of affecting my world view and experience of myself. Would that not qualify for their being meaningful?
This is a juicy one!💦 I would like to think that meaning comes from purpose and not time. Imagine an infinite life where you could learn every skill, explore every corner of the world, and keep growing without limits - sans the fear that comes with a ticking clock. This ADHD-brained girl is intrigued with that notion.😁 Imagine all the projects I could leave in my wake? 🎨✈️🧶
From the great song by The Wailin' Jennys, "Arlington" comes the line "without death, there is no hope." I first heard the song about 15 years ago and am still processing that line.
The image via Cursive Entelechia on X, Susan--oh, my! That looks like heaven on earth. Books and a bath--pure bliss!
"Do you agree that “safer situations”—ones that don’t happen to have intense consequences—tend not to be “exceedingly meaningful”?"
What he calls "safer situations", I call moments of awe and wonder, quiet time to reflect and maybe learn something about the world around me. I think those moments make me a better person and better able to be of service to others when they need me. Our society tends to be drawn to those who take chances and put themselves out there and that seems to carry more importance than those who are working quietly in the shadows.
I often feel as if I haven't contributed enough to society, but why should I care? I know I've been doing the important work of caring for my family, that I've been focusing on being my true self, and that I should not let society make me feel as if I'm not doing something important. I am. I have to keep telling myself that.
Safer situations have intense meaning for me—quiet, reflective ponderings about the grand design that surrounds us constantly.
Do I sound like an introvert?? LOL
Ha I could have written the exact same thing.
Tbh, it’s not my death that keeps me up at night, it’s the demise of my loved one’s. They give my life meaning and it’s frightening to consider their absence.
I envy those who have faith in a particular religion and/or the afterlife. I ascribe to the principles that Junger’s father taught him. Perhaps I’ll have a similar experience and it will change my mindset.
As for being immortal, I wouldn’t want to be if my loved one’s were not. I would not want to survive them all and deal with unending grief.
There’s something egotistical about believing that of all the living beings, we are so special that an afterlife awaits us. However, there is much I don’t understand and I hold onto the possibility that I’m wrong.
I’ve always liked how Shakespeare put it in Hamlet, “The undiscovere’d country from which whose bourn, no traveler returns, puzzles the will”..
Despite science’s advances, there is still so much to be explained and I don’t pretend to have all the answers.
thanks for articulating that, Shawn - I feel the same way re being much more rattled by the fear of death of loved ones than of my own.
Re being "egotistical" - when I consider the idea of an afterlife, I don't limit it to humans; I assume that, if it exists, it would include all conscious beings. Or all consciousness, might be a better way to put that.
I don't think I could possibly answer these questions in the way they deserve to be answered -- especially not while tapping on my phone with one thumb.
How do I feel about the idea that life would be meaningless without death? I'm not sure about that one, either. Having a time limit can lead us to search inside and carefully choose how we spend or time. The shortness of life can make the moments seem more precious.
But this is all we know. If this life were eternal, couldn't I still find good reasons to savor the moments? Would my growth, inevitably, be slower or not happen at all? Would I fall into an endless rut of laziness and gluttony, always putting things off for tomorrow?
Who can say? To me, the shortness of this life, and the fact that we can be given vastly different amounts of time to live--seems rather meaningless, at times. The fact that some of us end up having our lives mostly consumed by addiction, disease, loneliness and other things that often are largely beyond our control. Can we say that is the "meaning" of one person's life? At the same time, another person is able to write poetry and teach and be a leader and an innovator and build a lasting legacy and be revered and remembered?
Isn't the meaning we give to a human life largely dependant upon the opportunities granted each person? To say the "meaning" lies only in what each person makes of life and the time they are given.... That notion seems short-sighted to me. I honestly think it could be true that some people never really have a chance to fully live and feel alive and contribute in a meaningful way.
Those are just a few of my thoughts and questions. No doubt there's a lot here that I'm overlooking or that I don't understand.
I'll end here. Thanks for the thought-provoking questions.
Amy, you articulated much of what I was trying to work out as I thought about these questions. I especially relate to this question and answer:
"Isn't the meaning we give to a human life largely dependant upon the opportunities granted each person? To say the "meaning" lies only in what each person makes of life and the time they are given.... That notion seems short-sighted to me. I honestly think it could be true that some people never really have a chance to fully live and feel alive and contribute in a meaningful way."
I often feel this way about my own life, that I've been handed a challenging situation and don't feel "fully alive" or that I'm not contributing in a way that might seem meaningful to others (except those I care for, of course). I can't change the situation I'm in, so I make the best of it. But what would others think of me and my lack of "accomplishments" when what I do daily is quietly and compassionately caring for the needs of others and not rising to expectations of something they consider a success or something noteworthy?
I also wonder how we'd all react if we had infinite time on our hands. I don't tend to think about how much time I have left, but understanding that death awaits me does motivate me somewhat to make the best use of each day. Sometimes I fail at this. We never know when our time will come, but for me, knowing I'm on a ticking clock does make me appreciate the time I do have on this planet.
I wonder about Junger's assertion that without death, life is meaningless because it would never end. Instinctively, I'd argue that plenty of living people have very meaningful lives - it's not their death that creates the meaning, it's their actions.
However, scratching the surface... My mum died when I was 12. I loved her dearly and it is the single most traumatic thing that's ever happened to me. My partner's dad died when he was 16 - I know that it traumatised him similarly. I suspect that my partner and I (to an extent - that's important), probably ascribe more 'meaning' to our passed parents than objectively would be fair; that is to say, we tend towards seeing them with rose tinted glasses. For example, I am acutely aware of my (living) dad's weaknesses and faults but for me, my mum has none... In that way, I can see some truth in Junger's assertion. Or, perhaps death amplified the meaning that was already there.
I recently read somewhere that we are all just borrowed carbon. That might sound trite, but it's pretty incredible to think about what I have done and will do with my unique carbon configuration, who has shared parts of it before, and who will use it after me—the passions, joys, disappointments, falls, and moments of awe and of profound grief. For the non-religious me, this notion is an expression of our profound connectedness.
Thanks for sharing these thoughts about one of the greatest last taboos of our society. In my opinion, death like aging is a normal part of the human experience. Nevertheless, we go around for the most part finding ways to look younger and /or seek some kind of wellness program to extend our natural life expectancy. Life for me can have meaning while living,. Knowing we are mortal and will die can also be motivating. Being a descent human being and helping others is what I see as meaningful. Knowing I have a finite numbers of years left to live based on family history and statistics motivates me to spend my time wisely, finding and making opportunities to find meaning. If I have the opportunity to leave the physical plane gently, I’m very interested in having a death doula. A meaningful way to transition to the spiritual dimension.
Thank you Susan for these deep thought provoking questions! I think life would still have meaning even if it didn’t end. It’s what you make of it. Love, nature, kindness, helping others all give meaning to life.
When my Mom was dying she was talking to her family members that have passed. It felt like they were in the room with her giving her assurance and guidance. It felt so peaceful to know she wouldn’t be alone where she was going. It made it easier on her and us knowing this.
I must say, I do not agree. I think an immortal life could be filled with new challenges, goals and experiences. Imagine *not* having time as a scepter and instead, be offered many chances to course correct and better oneself. Thank you dear Susan for this book recommendation and for such a thought-provoking post! ❤️🙏
Safer situations . . . —tend not to be “exceedingly meaningful” - I assume that due most brains’ way of working, i.e. based on negativity biased will in fact consider such safer / more pleasant situations as less meaningful - until. . . - the environment changes, e.g. at war times - so that those very moments become the dream scenario.
Interesting way to put “adrenaline junkies are actually ‘meaning junkies,’ and danger seekers are actually ‘consequence seekers’ - tend to agree. . . - not necessarily based on personal experience but because there’s other examples of ‘misleading’ emotions, e.g. hurt feelings ever so often come as anger.
I’ve to admit that at first sight, the title was a bit disturbing - but as so clearly expressed in the quote, dying is such a normal, ordinary part of life, no escape and in most cases no control / timing. It should not be hard to accept that / live with it and yet, I recently came across an article ‘are we the first generation that won’t die?’ (https://www.theguardian.com/film/2025/jan/02/bryan-johnson-documentary-dont-die-netflix) -
I’m not that old yet, but over the last couple of years have seen my parents aging - it seems that at least my mum at times, preferred dying over aging, as this is too is radical change, most in an undesired way, bringing about weakness, pain, suffering etc. - all of that just to say, the concept of death/dying is informed by circumstances, i.e. its not abstract / intellectual/philosophical - or at least not only.
I read a book called "Changed In A Flash" by Elizabeth Krohn. It describes her near death experience after being hit by lightning. She describes being in an Eden like environment for 2 weeks and being given very detailed information about her life and future. She was given the choice to come back or not and she decides to come back because of her 2 young children. The predictions she was given came true and she has all kinds of new abilities and talents and challenges afterwards. There is a growing body of literature about near death experiences. This one confirmed my belief that there is so much more to this world than we know and that life doesn't end when we die. The soul lives on. Still, so many more questions.
*Do you agree that “safer situations”—ones that don’t happen to have intense consequences—tend not to be “exceedingly meaningful”?
This phrase makes me wonder what the "intense consequences" might have been from two encounters with wild animals. First was the time I was lying on my little deck in my zero gravity chair and put down the book I was reading. Along came a hummingbird which hovered a while a few inches from my face as if looking at me. The experience had its own kind of intensity and the consquence may have been a contribution to my sense of inter-connectedness to all life. The same "time out of time" experience occurred when I was driving into a familiar nearby wooded wildlife refuge and saw a silhouette of a dog in the road ahead. As I approached in my car slowly I could see that it was a fox and I stopped the car. The fox sat still looking in my direction. I'm not sure what they could see, whether just the car, or also the human inside it. I stopped and waited for the fox to leave at their own initiative. The consequence? Is it intense? The embodied certainty that I was on the fox's land and not that the fox was on people's land. The consquence being this embodied sense of a thought. Both of these situations were safe. Yet each had a consquence that changed my experience of myself in the larger world. I have had traumatic, unsafe experiences become embodied , but these "safe" experiences also remain as embodied memories, as well, and they had the consquences of affecting my world view and experience of myself. Would that not qualify for their being meaningful?
This is a juicy one!💦 I would like to think that meaning comes from purpose and not time. Imagine an infinite life where you could learn every skill, explore every corner of the world, and keep growing without limits - sans the fear that comes with a ticking clock. This ADHD-brained girl is intrigued with that notion.😁 Imagine all the projects I could leave in my wake? 🎨✈️🧶
Next time I smell check 🤣
From the great song by The Wailin' Jennys, "Arlington" comes the line "without death, there is no hope." I first heard the song about 15 years ago and am still processing that line.