I find the "deep talk" referred to here to be much more enjoyable and satisfying than other, more surface topics. I am aware that small talk has its place, especially to get things started with someone you don't know, but I try to move past it as quickly as possible.
I attended an event in my town, multiple times, that sounds very much like the experiment mentioned here. We were paired up with strangers and provided with topics to talk about, and each of us had to explore the topic from our own experience. Although the topics were fairly safe - what's an opinion you have that's different from most people, for example - it didn't take long for us to be speaking with each other at a very personal level, despite being strangers. I loved these events and left them feeling very enriched, even though I had not known these people before that night.
I struggle sometimes to get to this level of conversation in so-called real life, not because I don't want to or am uncomfortable doing it - I love doing it - but because I'm often unsure how to break through the conventions of small talk or practical talk. Just jumping from talking about the weather or someone's vacation to deeper personal topics can feel awkward, and I want to be better at it. Because once we get to that level of conversation, it's so much more rewarding.
I believe it is possible to learn to make a good connection, and I move into deep conversations by talking about shared interests and being vulnerable at times.
When I was younger, deep conversations with people I had just met seemed to happen regularly, and with ease--especially when traveling. In the last 20 years, I think I have shut down a lot around strangers, and I am trying to reverse this trend. I still carry a book: not every conversation draws me. But I have had a couple of really memorable conversations since I have set the intention to be more open. I recently wrote about one of these encounters on my SubStack. What made the difference? I was receptive to the people around me ( not on my phone, not glued to a book) and did not feel rushed, and my conversation partner was in a similar state of mind.
In my experience, teenagers are especially closed up these days with all the time they spend on screens. But I adore teenagers and I love pulling them out of their shell IF IT IS RIGHT IN THE MOMENT. What I sometimes do is comment on one of their tattoos, because a tattoo has got to be a deeply personal thing. It means something to them or they wouldn’t have done it. So I will ask: tell me about your tattoo? What’s behind it? It looks really good and i’d love to know more. What does it mean to you?
And man oh man, the conversations usually just take off from there… at least in my experience. Of course it MUST be authentic. If you are not 100% authentic they will see you coming a mile away! Teenagers are like that and we’re lucky they are-;)
Just personal life. I’m retired now. But i’ve always had a lot of respect for teenagers, (for sure adults too.) And you make a good point about rite of passage for adults… that’s something I’ll keep in mind. I guess basically I believe strongly that people want TO BE SEEN, so to take a moment to really try and see someone else is an act of love for them and for ourselves as well…
Susie, I think your question about tattoos is brilliant- and not just with teenagers, but also with adults. Most people I know have thought very deeply about their tattoos. They have become something of a right of passage. I don't have any myself, so the conversation could become a little one-sided, but I am sure I could find other ways to meet whoever I am speaking with. I find myself wondering also, about the contexts in which you are meeting teenagers. For work? In your personal life?
My greatest challenge is always the same. There's a NAMI video where an actor spoke of his experience with mental illness. He stated that there were times where a good day was when he brushed his teeth. My challenge is to “brush my teeth” every day... Anything beyond that is a blessing...
What’s your ideal way to spend a weekend?
I work on code all week from my apartment. I want to be out and about and outdoors in some way shape or form on the weekends. And if it's a “Rainy Day, Dream Away” or winter storm weekend day – then there's always a classic film to watch or some great music to listen to...
What role does love play in your life?
I have bad things in life and a lot has to do with love and romance, who can and who can't. I don't get that in this life. I don't write about the details.
Would you like to be famous?
I saw an interview with a former CEO of GE who said it was the people who worked 5-9 who made it in America. And that's what he did. I'm not ashamed to say I don't have that type of ambition, nor the talent to “make it to the show.” I like living in the realm of regular peeps... Fame, fortune, notoriety MEH!
How would you describe a perfect day?
I left SoCal in 2009 to head to MN as my Dad was dying of cancer. I was among the countless unemployed. I took a road trip and I actually flipped a coin to decide what direction to go, the southerly route which I'd done before or the northerly route up the west coast. The latter won out. No schedule, no itinerary, and picked places to visit along on the road. That's my kind of perfect day.
When did you last cry?
I have bipolar disorder and I was abused. Memories happen, tears happen. Life with a chemical imbalance in the brain...
How do you feel about your relationship with your mother?
My Dad was an unemployed, chain smoking, abusive gin mill . My Mom had a job and provided for us. She was the stable one, a good person. There were still difficulties with Mom (and Dad) for the same reasons, manifested in different ways. I often write in my pages about life as a motherless and fatherless child.
14 years ago, I bought an old farmhouse in rural Vermont. After closing, I was alone with my second thoughts and overwhelm, and took myself to dinner. I'd just ordered a table for one and a beer, and opened a notbook to make some lists when a handsome young man (the bartender) came over, introduced himself, and asked, "What's your story?" That deep talk invitation helped me return to the excitement and joy of fulfilling my childhood dream of owning a white clapboard house with a barn, amid Vermont's rolling green hills. My partner and I are still friends with this man and his partner, and I can always count on skipping the small talk and diving deep into our most creative, joyful thoughts.
On the rare occasion that I travel on a train, I usually take a book and bury my head in it, to avoid any chit chat. However, on my last train journey, some 4 hours, there and back again, I found myself chatting with the woman next to me, eventually. I can't really remember what we talked about, but I do know that when we parted ways, we were both kind of sad. I can't now remember the two women's names even, but I know it was a wistful parting because we somehow had some meaningful discussions, and felt a brief connection. I'm not naive enough to think this quality of chat will always occur on a train (or plane) journey, but I'm happy not to bury myself in a book or determinedly look out of the window the next time I'm taking a long trip by public transport! :-)
When I was younger, deep conversations with people I had just met seemed to happen regularly, and with ease--especially when traveling. In the last 20 years, I think I have shut down a lot around strangers, and I am trying to reverse this trend. I still carry a book: not every conversation draws me. But I have had a couple of really memorable conversations since I have set the intention to be more open.
Susan, thank you for this. and for bringing your friend, Adam, along with his new book.
I find this topic fascinating as we find people who are very happy to go 'deep' quickly and others who perhaps have never gone there and so don't know how.
Do you think it's a 'learned' behaviour, Susan? I do and I think many people, perhaps men more so, haven't learnt it and some never do. They simply don't know how to go beyond surface level small talk and don't want to because for xx years they've never done it and the thought of doing it is a little scary. Plus they simply don't know how.
I found myself in an interesting situation a few weeks back. 2 catch ups with close friends. The first, someone who I connect with on a deep spiritual level, so we can quickly jump into what's going on in how hearts. What we believe God is stirring in us at that moment. Then I met another great friend from my school days for lunch (we meet every week), and I found myself almost bored, struggling to make conversation as everything was so superficial.
Thank you for the questions you noted at the bottom of the post, I will use some of them in my catchups with others.
Off to grab a copy of Adam's book. Thanks again, Susan.
I have had many experiences of instant deep connections. A conversation with a man in a laundromat about his brother’s death from AIDS (in the ‘80s when that was very much a taboo subject). A whispered conversation with the woman handing out food samples at the grocery store about our shared fear that Trump would win in 2024. A lunch with someone I was meeting for the first time that became a two hour conversation about past and current challenges in our lives. A conversation while standing in line to board a flight with a woman whose spouse had recently died.
None of these were “trauma dumps.” They were meaningful connections I wasn’t expecting or seeking. But I’m an introvert with no interest in or patience for small talk, so I naturally ask questions like those listed and seem to give off a “vibe” that I’m a safe person to be real with.
The games that I make are specifically for all of this: conversation, connection, vulnerability, curiosity- all with a built in ease because of the structure of an inclusive, simple to play card game.
A few of the games in my collection are used in therapy too, for couples, families, and teens which is such a huge honor.
it might be old age or the amount of loneliness I feel, that made me talk to strangers in the last couple of months, starting off some silly topic, like unable to Miso soup with chopsticks, or discussing cacao orchata in a little coffee / cacao shop or water sports during a ‘round trip‘ on ferry, nothing prepared, nothing expected, starting out of nowhere and amazed by the interaction that followed - two out of three conversations lasted about an hour, and I regretted being a tourist and not meeting the bench neighbour again - having experienced this kind of connection, I very much believe, that more is possible starting with a different set of questions - I may try another time!
Already now, it was clear, that it‘s worth trying, and it made believe in men‘s good nature - in spite of all the negative news that prevail in daily news.
Thank you for this thought-provoking conversation about small talk / deep talk / vibe / vulnerability. I find that I gravitate towards what Parker Palmer speaks about: Third Things. Especially in groups. He describes the soul being like a wild animal in the woods; if you rush up on it (with direct, piercing questions), you can scare it away. Third Things (a poem, a quote, a photo, a piece of art, a song...) can act as a mediator and catalyst for telling the deeper stories.
But some people experience them as intrustive and intimidating. I've found that making an observation will often lead to deep talk in a less intimidating way. Examples:
"You remind me of my grandmother."
"The cruise you just took sounds appealing to me, but it's not my wife's cup of tea."
"I like how you responded to that snotty check-out lady. I would not have been as gracious."
I'm incapable of small talk so it's exciting to see this trending! My parents would become embarrassed when I would ask my deep, albeit sometimes inappropriate, conversation starters. One of my favourites as a child was "Do you believe in God?" Afterwards, in private, they'd tell me it was rude to ask people that. I still don't see it that way because I was approaching the question from genuine agnosticism and curiosity. But they were staunch atheists with very little theory of mind, so it's much more likely they interpreted my question as asking people whether they were ignorant and/or unintelligent.
I’m incapable of small talk, too! And I’ve gotten so accustomed to talking with others about how we’re *really* doing (and feeling) that I sometimes forget that most people who ask “How are you?” just want me to say, Fine. How are you?” 🤣
I still have a moment of internal struggle when faced with the question of "how are you?" In that moment, I debate whether this person actually wants to know. Most of the time I conclude that if they only knew how things are going up in here, they never would have asked. 😂
Ain’t that the truth! I also pause and wonder how to answer that question: how are you? I don’t like it because I know it’s just the mechanical way that we function much of the time, so I try to find another way to inquire about somebody’s day…even something simple like: what’s happening for you today?
Yes, it’s sad that “How are you?” is often a meaningless greeting said in passing. When I walk in the park and people ask me that, many keep on walking past me before I can answer.
Love this, Susan. I love how Adam simplifies and clarifies this and makes sense of exactly what it is that we connect with--the vulnerability but not over-sharing and making someone uncomfortable. Another demonstration of how intuitively brilliant we humans are when we take a deeper look at things!
Just a few days ago, I was sitting in a fairly deserted hospital hallway waiting for my husband who was having an in-patient procedure. I was reading the book Attention Span by Gloria Mark. A woman walked by and asked, "Is that a good book?" I replied that it was and commented how interesting it was learning about the factors, internal and external, that have created shortened attention spans. Her work tag said, "Chaplain," but she said she was a psychologist by education. I told her I was a retired speech and language pathologist and enjoyed reading anything in the realm of neuroscience/psychology (language, brain, mind, consciousness). She said her mother was an SLP who specialized in fluency (stuttering). We continued to talk about brain/psychology topics for about five more minutes. Then she asked why I was waiting and I explained that my husband was getting a biopsy to see if his cancer of four years ago had metastasized. She clutched my hand and said all the right things. Then she was called away. I don't even know her name, but that interaction will stay with me forever.
I find the "deep talk" referred to here to be much more enjoyable and satisfying than other, more surface topics. I am aware that small talk has its place, especially to get things started with someone you don't know, but I try to move past it as quickly as possible.
I attended an event in my town, multiple times, that sounds very much like the experiment mentioned here. We were paired up with strangers and provided with topics to talk about, and each of us had to explore the topic from our own experience. Although the topics were fairly safe - what's an opinion you have that's different from most people, for example - it didn't take long for us to be speaking with each other at a very personal level, despite being strangers. I loved these events and left them feeling very enriched, even though I had not known these people before that night.
I struggle sometimes to get to this level of conversation in so-called real life, not because I don't want to or am uncomfortable doing it - I love doing it - but because I'm often unsure how to break through the conventions of small talk or practical talk. Just jumping from talking about the weather or someone's vacation to deeper personal topics can feel awkward, and I want to be better at it. Because once we get to that level of conversation, it's so much more rewarding.
I believe it is possible to learn to make a good connection, and I move into deep conversations by talking about shared interests and being vulnerable at times.
When I was younger, deep conversations with people I had just met seemed to happen regularly, and with ease--especially when traveling. In the last 20 years, I think I have shut down a lot around strangers, and I am trying to reverse this trend. I still carry a book: not every conversation draws me. But I have had a couple of really memorable conversations since I have set the intention to be more open. I recently wrote about one of these encounters on my SubStack. What made the difference? I was receptive to the people around me ( not on my phone, not glued to a book) and did not feel rushed, and my conversation partner was in a similar state of mind.
Thank you for this wonderful subject!
In my experience, teenagers are especially closed up these days with all the time they spend on screens. But I adore teenagers and I love pulling them out of their shell IF IT IS RIGHT IN THE MOMENT. What I sometimes do is comment on one of their tattoos, because a tattoo has got to be a deeply personal thing. It means something to them or they wouldn’t have done it. So I will ask: tell me about your tattoo? What’s behind it? It looks really good and i’d love to know more. What does it mean to you?
And man oh man, the conversations usually just take off from there… at least in my experience. Of course it MUST be authentic. If you are not 100% authentic they will see you coming a mile away! Teenagers are like that and we’re lucky they are-;)
Just personal life. I’m retired now. But i’ve always had a lot of respect for teenagers, (for sure adults too.) And you make a good point about rite of passage for adults… that’s something I’ll keep in mind. I guess basically I believe strongly that people want TO BE SEEN, so to take a moment to really try and see someone else is an act of love for them and for ourselves as well…
Susie, I think your question about tattoos is brilliant- and not just with teenagers, but also with adults. Most people I know have thought very deeply about their tattoos. They have become something of a right of passage. I don't have any myself, so the conversation could become a little one-sided, but I am sure I could find other ways to meet whoever I am speaking with. I find myself wondering also, about the contexts in which you are meeting teenagers. For work? In your personal life?
What’s your biggest challenge right now?
My greatest challenge is always the same. There's a NAMI video where an actor spoke of his experience with mental illness. He stated that there were times where a good day was when he brushed his teeth. My challenge is to “brush my teeth” every day... Anything beyond that is a blessing...
What’s your ideal way to spend a weekend?
I work on code all week from my apartment. I want to be out and about and outdoors in some way shape or form on the weekends. And if it's a “Rainy Day, Dream Away” or winter storm weekend day – then there's always a classic film to watch or some great music to listen to...
What role does love play in your life?
I have bad things in life and a lot has to do with love and romance, who can and who can't. I don't get that in this life. I don't write about the details.
Would you like to be famous?
I saw an interview with a former CEO of GE who said it was the people who worked 5-9 who made it in America. And that's what he did. I'm not ashamed to say I don't have that type of ambition, nor the talent to “make it to the show.” I like living in the realm of regular peeps... Fame, fortune, notoriety MEH!
How would you describe a perfect day?
I left SoCal in 2009 to head to MN as my Dad was dying of cancer. I was among the countless unemployed. I took a road trip and I actually flipped a coin to decide what direction to go, the southerly route which I'd done before or the northerly route up the west coast. The latter won out. No schedule, no itinerary, and picked places to visit along on the road. That's my kind of perfect day.
When did you last cry?
I have bipolar disorder and I was abused. Memories happen, tears happen. Life with a chemical imbalance in the brain...
How do you feel about your relationship with your mother?
My Dad was an unemployed, chain smoking, abusive gin mill . My Mom had a job and provided for us. She was the stable one, a good person. There were still difficulties with Mom (and Dad) for the same reasons, manifested in different ways. I often write in my pages about life as a motherless and fatherless child.
14 years ago, I bought an old farmhouse in rural Vermont. After closing, I was alone with my second thoughts and overwhelm, and took myself to dinner. I'd just ordered a table for one and a beer, and opened a notbook to make some lists when a handsome young man (the bartender) came over, introduced himself, and asked, "What's your story?" That deep talk invitation helped me return to the excitement and joy of fulfilling my childhood dream of owning a white clapboard house with a barn, amid Vermont's rolling green hills. My partner and I are still friends with this man and his partner, and I can always count on skipping the small talk and diving deep into our most creative, joyful thoughts.
On the rare occasion that I travel on a train, I usually take a book and bury my head in it, to avoid any chit chat. However, on my last train journey, some 4 hours, there and back again, I found myself chatting with the woman next to me, eventually. I can't really remember what we talked about, but I do know that when we parted ways, we were both kind of sad. I can't now remember the two women's names even, but I know it was a wistful parting because we somehow had some meaningful discussions, and felt a brief connection. I'm not naive enough to think this quality of chat will always occur on a train (or plane) journey, but I'm happy not to bury myself in a book or determinedly look out of the window the next time I'm taking a long trip by public transport! :-)
When I was younger, deep conversations with people I had just met seemed to happen regularly, and with ease--especially when traveling. In the last 20 years, I think I have shut down a lot around strangers, and I am trying to reverse this trend. I still carry a book: not every conversation draws me. But I have had a couple of really memorable conversations since I have set the intention to be more open.
Susan, thank you for this. and for bringing your friend, Adam, along with his new book.
I find this topic fascinating as we find people who are very happy to go 'deep' quickly and others who perhaps have never gone there and so don't know how.
Do you think it's a 'learned' behaviour, Susan? I do and I think many people, perhaps men more so, haven't learnt it and some never do. They simply don't know how to go beyond surface level small talk and don't want to because for xx years they've never done it and the thought of doing it is a little scary. Plus they simply don't know how.
I found myself in an interesting situation a few weeks back. 2 catch ups with close friends. The first, someone who I connect with on a deep spiritual level, so we can quickly jump into what's going on in how hearts. What we believe God is stirring in us at that moment. Then I met another great friend from my school days for lunch (we meet every week), and I found myself almost bored, struggling to make conversation as everything was so superficial.
Thank you for the questions you noted at the bottom of the post, I will use some of them in my catchups with others.
Off to grab a copy of Adam's book. Thanks again, Susan.
I have had many experiences of instant deep connections. A conversation with a man in a laundromat about his brother’s death from AIDS (in the ‘80s when that was very much a taboo subject). A whispered conversation with the woman handing out food samples at the grocery store about our shared fear that Trump would win in 2024. A lunch with someone I was meeting for the first time that became a two hour conversation about past and current challenges in our lives. A conversation while standing in line to board a flight with a woman whose spouse had recently died.
None of these were “trauma dumps.” They were meaningful connections I wasn’t expecting or seeking. But I’m an introvert with no interest in or patience for small talk, so I naturally ask questions like those listed and seem to give off a “vibe” that I’m a safe person to be real with.
Love this!
The games that I make are specifically for all of this: conversation, connection, vulnerability, curiosity- all with a built in ease because of the structure of an inclusive, simple to play card game.
A few of the games in my collection are used in therapy too, for couples, families, and teens which is such a huge honor.
it might be old age or the amount of loneliness I feel, that made me talk to strangers in the last couple of months, starting off some silly topic, like unable to Miso soup with chopsticks, or discussing cacao orchata in a little coffee / cacao shop or water sports during a ‘round trip‘ on ferry, nothing prepared, nothing expected, starting out of nowhere and amazed by the interaction that followed - two out of three conversations lasted about an hour, and I regretted being a tourist and not meeting the bench neighbour again - having experienced this kind of connection, I very much believe, that more is possible starting with a different set of questions - I may try another time!
Already now, it was clear, that it‘s worth trying, and it made believe in men‘s good nature - in spite of all the negative news that prevail in daily news.
Thank you for this thought-provoking conversation about small talk / deep talk / vibe / vulnerability. I find that I gravitate towards what Parker Palmer speaks about: Third Things. Especially in groups. He describes the soul being like a wild animal in the woods; if you rush up on it (with direct, piercing questions), you can scare it away. Third Things (a poem, a quote, a photo, a piece of art, a song...) can act as a mediator and catalyst for telling the deeper stories.
Parker Palmer’s writing is so wonderful … and so badly needed in today’s world.
I'm a big fan of questions like the ones shared.
But some people experience them as intrustive and intimidating. I've found that making an observation will often lead to deep talk in a less intimidating way. Examples:
"You remind me of my grandmother."
"The cruise you just took sounds appealing to me, but it's not my wife's cup of tea."
"I like how you responded to that snotty check-out lady. I would not have been as gracious."
I'm incapable of small talk so it's exciting to see this trending! My parents would become embarrassed when I would ask my deep, albeit sometimes inappropriate, conversation starters. One of my favourites as a child was "Do you believe in God?" Afterwards, in private, they'd tell me it was rude to ask people that. I still don't see it that way because I was approaching the question from genuine agnosticism and curiosity. But they were staunch atheists with very little theory of mind, so it's much more likely they interpreted my question as asking people whether they were ignorant and/or unintelligent.
I’m incapable of small talk, too! And I’ve gotten so accustomed to talking with others about how we’re *really* doing (and feeling) that I sometimes forget that most people who ask “How are you?” just want me to say, Fine. How are you?” 🤣
I still have a moment of internal struggle when faced with the question of "how are you?" In that moment, I debate whether this person actually wants to know. Most of the time I conclude that if they only knew how things are going up in here, they never would have asked. 😂
Ain’t that the truth! I also pause and wonder how to answer that question: how are you? I don’t like it because I know it’s just the mechanical way that we function much of the time, so I try to find another way to inquire about somebody’s day…even something simple like: what’s happening for you today?
Yes, it’s sad that “How are you?” is often a meaningless greeting said in passing. When I walk in the park and people ask me that, many keep on walking past me before I can answer.
Love this, Susan. I love how Adam simplifies and clarifies this and makes sense of exactly what it is that we connect with--the vulnerability but not over-sharing and making someone uncomfortable. Another demonstration of how intuitively brilliant we humans are when we take a deeper look at things!
Just a few days ago, I was sitting in a fairly deserted hospital hallway waiting for my husband who was having an in-patient procedure. I was reading the book Attention Span by Gloria Mark. A woman walked by and asked, "Is that a good book?" I replied that it was and commented how interesting it was learning about the factors, internal and external, that have created shortened attention spans. Her work tag said, "Chaplain," but she said she was a psychologist by education. I told her I was a retired speech and language pathologist and enjoyed reading anything in the realm of neuroscience/psychology (language, brain, mind, consciousness). She said her mother was an SLP who specialized in fluency (stuttering). We continued to talk about brain/psychology topics for about five more minutes. Then she asked why I was waiting and I explained that my husband was getting a biopsy to see if his cancer of four years ago had metastasized. She clutched my hand and said all the right things. Then she was called away. I don't even know her name, but that interaction will stay with me forever.